Alex Barnes talks about the complexities and benefits co-governance education in Aotearoa through application of te Tiriti o Waitangi, the subject of his recently completed PhD. We also discuss some of our experiences over decades of walking between te ao Māori and te ao Pākehā, and why we perceive them as different worlds.Plus we delve into how we, as Pākehā, identify ourselves in te ao Māori and understand our relationship with people and kaupapa we are involved in, and how we are continually learning and evolving in that space.Resources:Link to Alex’ PhD: Te Toka Whakaea: Co-governance Education in Aotearoa-New Zealand.